Cobberdogs

[LaFoom]

Now I don't even own a dog so no skin on either side of this argument.

But just putting it out there to find a random dog potentially runs into a smaller gene pool. If you aren't tracking the pedigree then you can't ensure you keep getting fresh bloodlines in. For one mating, no issue. But if the owner of one dog is active via the casual market and then sires the bulk of the casually breed dogs around a district, you could end up with gene pool issues. And if no one is tracking the breeding, no one has any way of knowing.

Of course, money oriented breeders (rather than health orientated breeders) can have exactly the same issue. 

It really comes down to what the person breeding the dog wants. The person who is a registered breeder probably has more "tools" available to them to breed healthy bloodlines and healthy dogs. But that doesn't guarantee they do. 

[jojonbeanie]

37 minutes ago, RomeoVoid said:

My issue isn't so much about dna testing or hip scores.  My beef is genetically distorting dogs into more and more screwed up versions to suit breeders.  They set ever more unrealistic goals for their breed in an attempt to make themselves feel more elite. Their regard for the health of the dogs appears zero.

Genuine question - If the breeders are showing their dogs wouldn't they be judged against the breed standard so anyone breeding away from the standard would be less likely to be successful in the show ring and therefore their dogs be less desirable to breed with? 

[Ker]

9 minutes ago, Hills Mum Bec said:

DNA testing can also be done to screen for hereditary diseases, not just to prove that it's purebred.

Sure. In the case of border collies (and other breeds) it can test for eye diseases such as PRA. But DNA won't show you any musculo-skeletal illnesses.

[Ker]

2 minutes ago, jojonbeanie said:

Genuine question - If the breeders are showing their dogs wouldn't they be judged against the breed standard so anyone breeding away from the standard would be less likely to be successful in the show ring and therefore their dogs be less desirable to breed with? 

Unfortunately some dogs over time have been bred to have "desirable" traits that become desirable to judges. Like the GSD that won at Crufts a few years back with the sloping back. I can't stand the sloping back, yet a few years back, that's all that were being bred.

[Romeo Void]

14 minutes ago, jojonbeanie said:

Genuine question - If the breeders are showing their dogs wouldn't they be judged against the breed standard so anyone breeding away from the standard would be less likely to be successful in the show ring and therefore their dogs be less desirable to breed with? 

So many dogs no longer resemble their ancestors because the people breeding them decided the look was 'cute' or whatever.  This is a pug for example, modern and from generations back as a comparison 

[Ernegirl]

24 minutes ago, RomeoVoid said:

So many dogs no longer resemble their ancestors because the people breeding them decided the look was 'cute' or whatever.  This is a pug for example, modern and from generations back as a comparison 

That’s actually so sad. 

[dianalynch]

We just bought a pup, and paid a standard non registered price for the breed...the pup’s parents aren’t registered, but as we were after a family pet we didn’t need or desire that kind of standard, we were however interested in a pup with a known history. 

we know the breeders, the pup’s parents, the health history, the temperament of the parents,  how they raise the pups, what they feed them, the vet checks, we get ‘after sales support’ lol, we described our family and lifestyle, they agreed the breed would suit us but wanted to make sure the particular pup had an outgoing and friendly nature, so the right pup for us wasn’t selected until they were old enough to tell, the breeder has checked in with us to make sure pup is settling in...

so I guess we bought off a byb and we’ve probably done the wrong thing, for what we wanted it seemed okay and we have a lovely little dog...

[Moomintroll]

2 minutes ago, dianalynch said:

We just bought a pup, and paid a standard non registered price for the breed...the pup’s parents aren’t registered, but as we were after a family pet we didn’t need or desire that kind of standard, we were however interested in a pup with a known history. 

we know the breeders, the pup’s parents, the health history, the temperament of the parents,  how they raise the pups, what they feed them, the vet checks, we get ‘after sales support’ lol, we described our family and lifestyle, they agreed the breed would suit us but wanted to make sure the particular pup had an outgoing and friendly nature, so the right pup for us wasn’t selected until they were old enough to tell, the breeder has checked in with us to make sure pup is settling in...

so I guess we bought off a byb and we’ve probably done the wrong thing, for what we wanted it seemed okay and we have a lovely little dog...

I for one hope that this kind of back yard breeder can continue. I don't feel comfortable with the ever increasing cost of dogs, plus the remainder of dogs readily available eg from rescue, are usually very large and challenging breed types. 

[Bornagirl]

5 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

I for one hope that this kind of back yard breeder can continue. I don't feel comfortable with the ever increasing cost of dogs, plus the remainder of dogs readily available eg from rescue, are usually very large and challenging breed types. 

I read about a woman recently who kept adopting senior dogs. She had a property in the country and could afford the higher vet fees.  I figured that might be nice to do, so looked at the RSPCA site.  I'm well used to the big, mixed breeds at our local, but in the whole of Victoria, they did not have a single older dog for adoption.

I know many go to the smaller rescues, but my point is in the ten years since we've had our current lost dogs home dog, the scene has changed significantly.  If all of these oodles are bought on such whims, where the hell are they in the adoption system?

A bit off topic but we were told that many of the animals adopted during Covid, when so many more people could give a rescue the attention it deserved in the early days at home, would end up straight back at the shelter once people went back to work.  I was a bit staggered at the 'only owners of purebreeds' attitude (because that is exactly what it was) and am delighted to see that it was completely and utterly untrue.

 

[Bornagirl]

1 minute ago, FreshAyr said:

Often you don't see desirable breeds lingering in rescues because they're often snapped up even before they're advertised. And pure breed associations have their own rescue facilities where they are given a heads up about a dog in rescue and they go get it out and rehome it that way. We had a rescue years ago that was pure bred we got through the rescue via the breeder club. You wouldn't have seen her in a shelter.
You only see the mixed breeds people don't want because they're the ones hard to rehome or aren't taken in by breed specific rescues.

No, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about older dogs whose owner has died (whatever the 'mixed' breed). They used to be difficult to adopt out, because there was a reasonable selection of much younger dogs, that the average person felt capable of training.

You do NOT see the easy going mixed breeds, even puppy farm ones in the shelters.  You only find the large, unmanagable if untrained, aged 1- 2 years, when the novelty has worn off.  The problem with the byb as far as the rescues are concerned is the big, muscular breeds who require lots of training.

I'm well aware the breeders are given a heads up.  It's why i take no notice of comments saying 'you don't see pure breeds ending up in the shelters',  doesn't mean owners don't give them up for various reasons , even as pupppies- close family experience speaking there.

The people who got this puppy would have been just as happy with a bitzer from a shelter, like we were.

 

[Kallie]

4 hours ago, FreshAyr said:

If they're a registered breeder they need another dog registered with the same place in order to be able to breed pups that can be registered. So a random person with a dog they say they tested and want to stud out or want a stud for is more unlikely to be registered in the first place therefore a good ethical breeder won't be interested.

And in your hypothetical you would just be a byb. The dogs can't be registered and that's fine if that's what you wanted to be, plenty of people still buy from bybs because they save money or get the dog asap or whatever other reason but others want a registered pup where the breeder stands by the quality and can provide history on the parents on top of testing etc... Comes down to preference and if you care about that sort of thing which as we always see in these threads, not everyone cares that much. They just want a dog doesn't matter where from.

They can't be registered with the ANKC but they can be registered. The RPBA will register dogs that aren't pedigree and they have a code of conduct and ethics that breeders not following can get kicked off registration if they're not following it (I assume someone would have to complain to the association). This is why this stuff gets so confusing, none of the terms people use are consistent. A byb could be registered with the RPBA and doing their best to breed ethically, or could be just breeding their dogs for the experience and a bit of money on the side, or could be churning them out for profit. It's a broad brush to judge people with. So "they just want a dog doesn't matter where from" becomes very judgey as though people don't care, when they can in fact care and try their best to find a breeder with sound, healthy pups that just isn't a show dog. With the right tests they can be verified purebred, screened for genetic diseases etc. So where's the not caring? (obviously yes, some people don't care, but I'm saying I still don't see why those that do are wrong for not getting a dog with a pedigree).

Side note: I don't really fall on either side of this debate tbh, I just really don't feel like anyone has given a real answer in the distinctions here and that annoys me and makes me want to doggedly (pun not originally intended) ask questions until I'm satisfied with the answers.

[dianalynch]

We would hav even happy with a rescue, my past dogs were rescues, but we have kids now and weren’t in a position to take a large breed, so we purchased a small breed from a byb, a good byb but a byb nonetheless. I’m not sure about the difference between getting a dog from a byb and a rescue, I mean I knew a lot less about my rescue dogs than I know about my pup from a byb 

[Moomintroll]

17 minutes ago, FreshAyr said:

Yes because the placid easy going ones are often adopted even before they are advertised. Which is what I meant by the first line. I used the word breeds but wasn’t referring to pure bred. Pure bred are snapped up by the breed rescues, placid easy going crosses are often snapped up before they’re advertised. They don’t last in shelters like the unmanageable ones. Doesn’t mean they don’t end up in shelters they just aren’t there long enough to notice them.

I’ve had rescues all my life up until the last few years. And when we tried to get another the only ones available were not suited to our family. Anything that was had already been adopted or had 500 applications already so wasn’t worth putting in the 501st, or the rescue wasn’t taking more.

My partner is very involved in rescue and rehoming so I see what goes on quite closely. There has been a big change over recent years. It has become so much harder to adopt a rescue dog, especially a smaller sized dog. I would say that very few oodles come up for rehoming either in pounds, in rescues, or even for private rehoming. They never have really but used to be occasional and now are almost unheard of. Most of the more appealing dogs (various crossbreed generally but some purebreeds) seem to get rehomed without ever making it to the pound or a rescue, ie via social media groups. The pound and rescues get 90% large dogs, generally staffy or bully breed crosses, and some working dog crosses, and the other 10%  are small dogs mostly with serious health or behaviour problems. One friend was able to adopt a small terrier from rescue last year, but only because she had an insider relationship with the RSPCA. Other acquaintances who would normally go to rescue have ended up seeking out BYBs. 

[rewritethestars]

Yes I agree Moomintroll. I have been looking at adoption as my last three have all been rescue (one a senior small breed. She was an angel), but there are none of the age, type and temperament we need available, including in all the smaller rescue organisations I know of. 
 

I’d love to rescue them all but am simply not able to take on a larger, untrained adolescent or older dog.  So we’re left with breeders and the confusion that is finding an ethical and honest one with a pup that fulfils the type of assistance dog we need. I just want to do the right thing.