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Pukeko

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One of my friends has a situation that is a bit like a modern village - 3 sisters living in the same street (within 5 houses), and they co-own a minibus and jointly pay for a full time nanny-housekeeper who works between the houses. Works brilliantly for them. 

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1 minute ago, Bjh said:

One of my friends has a situation that is a bit like a modern village - 3 sisters living in the same street (within 5 houses), and they co-own a minibus and jointly pay for a full time nanny-housekeeper who works between the houses. Works brilliantly for them. 

I LOVE this as it has separate houses. I could absolutely take it in turn to mind other peoples kids (I've talked with a neighbour about this for when our boys are at school), but not live with anyone else, no matter how big the house. I just can't for so many of the reasons @Jane Jetson mentioned. I nodded to most of them.

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We live on the same (quite large - nearly 5000sqm) block as my inlaws. They live in the back house, we live in the front house. It works well because they more or less respect our space. They do pop in frequently unannounced, but they always knock. They don't just barge in.

They help us out a lot with meals and childcare, but not so much during the pandemic, as they are pushing 80 and wanted to shelter in place.

It works for us because both DP and I grew up in multi-generational households, so we are accustomed to it. We have slightly different, but both European cultural backgrounds.

1 hour ago, Lees75 said:

However, I sometimes wonder if single-parenting, with a good co-parenting relationship, and some shared custody arrangements, is maybe easier, in some aspects, than negotiating in a nuclear family?

I agree with this in some respects. I have an amicable co-parenting relationship with my ex. When he is living nearby (he is military), it works out well as it's like having another set of hands around. 

My Mum is difficult. If I ever need help I go to the inlaws, ex, my brother or a school friend's parent. My Mum is always the absolute last resort because she comes with 99 problems and her own bag of crazy.

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We had 3 generations under one roof for a while, before cancer claimed DP's dad. It worked great, in part due to the fact that our house (at the time) had what was virtually an internal "granny flat". It was so good for work-life balance and, most importantly, fantastic for DD1 and DD2 to develop such a deep connect with him before he passed.

In my culture, multi-generational families living in one house or very close by are very common. Despite that, sadly my parents are just unable to do or help much (for various reasons): they are lucky to see DD1 and DD2 once per week, even though both live less than 5 minutes drive away :(

I am hoping that once one retires, that may change. Time will tell. But yes, I think multi-generational families in one house can work well, but they can also be a big strain if the grandparents are battling dementia or terminal illness whilst children are young. In those cases, it basically doubles the caring load in a family. 

 

 

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I saw my grandparents a lot growing up but they were grandparents not babysitters and that is the way I am happy with, my mum had ds for one day a week for a year and little bit but that was her choice not ours 

As ds has grown he still sees my parents (my inlaws are overseas) as his grandparents but I want my parents to do what they want with their time.

If we ever have grandkids I will want to see them but I had my time raising a child.

I dont see grandparents as staff and sure if they choose to help out fine but to me it is not a rule, and I have heard the way people speak of their parents like they are chess pieces just there for them.

So multigenerational living is great if it is actually for everyone's benefit 

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16 hours ago, Kreme said:

@Moomintrollbut those situations involve emotional connections between the adults. That’s not all that different to divorced parents who are repartnered and sharing custody. This is talking about bringing in an unrelated adult purely for the purpose of childcare. It seems like a dramatic solution to a short term problem. As mentioned above I’d rather see pushback on corporate expectations as my out of the box thinking rather than changing my family dynamic and massively increasing my stress (as an introvert a boarder sounds like a nightmare to me, great if it works for others). 

The family in this article didn't bring an unrelated person in for childcare. He's asexual but he's close to them, and close to the child. 

I don't think it's a useful model for most "normal" couples but it's obviously a dynamic that works for them. I think it would work well for the kind of people who thrive on explicit rules and boundaries, and people who are very extroverted - as in, never wish they were alone at home. 

Personally I'm more introverted (although I'd never claim 100 percent int or ext as a label; I find that irritating; it's a spectrum) and I hate talking explicitly about relationships and feelings - I'm more "it's the vibe, it's Mabo" than "this is how we will relationally approach this thing". 

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But in some cultures multi generational living is actually expected.

Indians inlaws ( the husband's parents) move in after a couple marries ( or the couple moves in). The grandparents expect to be the parents while the actual parents work. My neighbour sent his 6 month old twins to live with his parents in India until they started school, as his parents expected this and insisted ( and his wife just had to suck it up).

Chinese culture is very much the same, grandparents raise the grad kids while the parents work. So yes, you will get people sounded entitled and treating grandparents as staff ( and the other way, the grandparents insisting the grandchildren live with them). 

It is quite different to how the Eurooean culture and evolved into. It is often considered that the European way is cruel, and not showing respect to your elders by not allowing your children to be raised by them.

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Just now, Kiwi Bicycle said:

But in some cultures multi generational living is actually expected.

Indians inlaws ( the husband's parents) move in after a couple marries ( or the couple moves in). The grandparents expect to be the parents while the actual parents work. My neighbour sent his 6 month old twins to live with his parents in India until they started school, as his parents expected this and insisted ( and his wife just had to suck it up).

Chinese culture is very much the same, grandparents raise the grad kids while the parents work. So yes, you will get people sounded entitled and treating grandparents as staff ( and the other way, the grandparents insisting the grandchildren live with them). 

It is quite different to how the Eurooean culture and evolved into. It is often considered that the European way is cruel, and not showing respect to your elders by not allowing your children to be raised by them.

If that works for everyone involved great! But what about mixed cultures should a wife/husband have to do something just because it's culture.

For example If a husband dicated to his new wife 'well my parents are going to move in with us and help raise our kids' great if the wife wants it but what if she doesn't?

But also the other way if the grandparents said 'you have to move in with us' or whatever is all well and good if everyone wants too

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1 minute ago, Seayork2002 said:

If that works for everyone involved great! But what about mixed cultures should a wife/husband have to do something just because it's culture.

For example If a husband dicated to his new wife 'well my parents are going to move in with us and help raise our kids' great if the wife wants it but what if she doesn't?

But also the other way if the grandparents said 'you have to move in with us' or whatever is all well and good if everyone wants too

I guess if someone feels *that* strongly about doing things the way their particular culture has always done, then they're not too likely to marry outside that culture. Or at least if they did then it would be to someone who was happy to adapt their life and thinking to that culture. 

I've known several Jewish people, and one Indian woman, who were happy to date and have sex outside their culture in their early 20's, but wouldn't dream of marrying any of those people. They knew and accepted they'd marry someone from their own quite specific cultural group. 

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Guest Alias Grace
17 minutes ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

But in some cultures multi generational living is actually expected.

Indians inlaws ( the husband's parents) move in after a couple marries ( or the couple moves in). The grandparents expect to be the parents while the actual parents work. My neighbour sent his 6 month old twins to live with his parents in India until they started school, as his parents expected this and insisted ( and his wife just had to suck it up).

Chinese culture is very much the same, grandparents raise the grad kids while the parents work. So yes, you will get people sounded entitled and treating grandparents as staff ( and the other way, the grandparents insisting the grandchildren live with them). 

It is quite different to how the Eurooean culture and evolved into. It is often considered that the European way is cruel, and not showing respect to your elders by not allowing your children to be raised by them.

That is a very harsh assessment and certainly not my perception of Asian multi-generational family dynamics.  From what I have seen of DH's Asian culture, multi-generational families are a mutually beneficial economic necessity as much as they are a cultural norm.  Grandparents are certainly very involved in the caring of their grandchildren but IME do not consider them as their own children to raise.  Similarly, the adult children are highly respectful of their parents and in-laws and certainly do not treat them as staff.  From my viewpoint, Asian multi-general family arrangements are a case of "everybody helping everybody" and definitely not selfish and transactional as you are suggesting.     

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19 minutes ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

But in some cultures multi generational living is actually expected.

Indians inlaws ( the husband's parents) move in after a couple marries ( or the couple moves in). The grandparents expect to be the parents while the actual parents work. My neighbour sent his 6 month old twins to live with his parents in India until they started school, as his parents expected this and insisted ( and his wife just had to suck it up).

Chinese culture is very much the same, grandparents raise the grad kids while the parents work. So yes, you will get people sounded entitled and treating grandparents as staff ( and the other way, the grandparents insisting the grandchildren live with them). 

It is quite different to how the Eurooean culture and evolved into. It is often considered that the European way is cruel, and not showing respect to your elders by not allowing your children to be raised by them.

I'm not sure what European cultures you are referring to. My family is most definitely European and in our country and culture multi-generational living is very common and in some parts of the country, most definitely expected.  Did you mean British, Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Celtic cultures instead of "European"? (which is just about as useful a descriptor as "Asian" when it comes to culture).   

Edited by NotsoSure
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1 minute ago, Alias Grace said:

That is a very harsh assessment and certainly not my perception of Asian multi-generational family dynamics.  From what I have seen of DH's Asian culture, multi-generational families are a mutually beneficial economic necessity as much as they are a cultural norm.  Grandparents are certainly very involved in the caring of their grandchildren but IME do not consider them as their own children to raise.  Similarly, the adult children are highly respectful of their parents and in-laws and certainly do not treat them as staff.  From my viewpoint, Asian multi-general family arrangements are a case of "everybody helping everybody" and definitely not selfish and transactional as you are suggesting.     

OK, I know I sound harsh, but I am married into a Chinese family and lived in a Chinese community. I have had Indian friends and we have had frank discussions about how things work..

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5 minutes ago, NotsoSure said:

I'm not sure what European cultures you are referring to. My family is most definitely European and in our country and culture multi-generational living is very common and in some parts of the country, most definitely expected.  Did you mean British, Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Celtic cultures instead of "European"? (which is just about as useful a descriptor as "Asian" when it comes to culture).   

I was meaning European American, European Australian and European New Zealand culture. I did recognise that multi generational living actually actually the norm in the past but for some reason has changed.

Edited by Kiwi Bicycle
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Guest Alias Grace
13 minutes ago, Seayork2002 said:

If that works for everyone involved great! But what about mixed cultures should a wife/husband have to do something just because it's culture.

For example If a husband dicated to his new wife 'well my parents are going to move in with us and help raise our kids' great if the wife wants it but what if she doesn't?

But also the other way if the grandparents said 'you have to move in with us' or whatever is all well and good if everyone wants too

Well, presumably in mixed cultural relationships this would be discussed well in advance and not sprung on anyone by surprise.  When my relationship with DH started to get serious, we discussed our respective deal breakers - i.e. kids or no kids, careers, living overseas, etc.  His only one was that his parents should be able to move in with us when they aged.  And obviously I was ok with that given that we're still together 12 years' later!  (It hasn't actually eventuated and it is unlikely to in the future but I am onboard with it if it does become a reality).   

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I took 10 years to agree to marry my DH. I had lots of discussions about expectations. Did my inlaws expect to move in when they retire as DH is oldest son? ( no, they didn't as FIL parents never moved in with any of their sons). Did they expect us to financially support them when they retired? ( no, as both parents had retirement funds, the government pension and assets, grandmother in Singapore did require money as pocket money from her 3 sons as she expected it). What religion did they expect us to raise out children? ( DH just told them it was our business) and so on.

Inter generational living should be an agreement and benefit for all. But also you cannot sugar coat it as well. India has women move into the inlaws house and been treated like slaves and grandparents also been treated badly. It not always fun and games. Some people do expect a grandchild to raise as they were too busy working first time around and see retirement as the time to be the parents they wanted to be. Or the reality is the parents are working so hard, they have to send their child to the grandparents to raise full time ( quite often in China).

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Guest Alias Grace
34 minutes ago, Kiwi Bicycle said:

I took 10 years to agree to marry my DH. I had lots of discussions about expectations. Did my inlaws expect to move in when they retire as DH is oldest son? ( no, they didn't as FIL parents never moved in with any of their sons). Did they expect us to financially support them when they retired? ( no, as both parents had retirement funds, the government pension and assets, grandmother in Singapore did require money as pocket money from her 3 sons as she expected it). What religion did they expect us to raise out children? ( DH just told them it was our business) and so on.

Inter generational living should be an agreement and benefit for all. But also you cannot sugar coat it as well. India has women move into the inlaws house and been treated like slaves and grandparents also been treated badly. It not always fun and games. Some people do expect a grandchild to raise as they were too busy working first time around and see retirement as the time to be the parents they wanted to be. Or the reality is the parents are working so hard, they have to send their child to the grandparents to raise full time ( quite often in China).

Oh I agree that it's not always rosy especially for women who move in with their in-laws and I acknowledge that my positive view is coloured by DH's extended family and close friend network and it's easy to extrapolate and over-generalise. 

At the same time, I think it's important to appreciate and take into account the different societal structures and cultural contexts in Asian countries, rather than simply judge them through a Western cultural lens.  As I am sure you would know, many Asian economies hinge on extensive inter-generational familial help being the norm as a matter of necessity - i.e. limited or no social welfare safety nets, long working hours, limited or no Government funded childcare or aged care, etc.  So inter-generational family living is a necessity and reality for many and many do make it work for everyone's mutual benefit.  As an example, in my job I oversee a team of mostly early-to-mid career women across Asia and due to family support they are able to have children and continue to advance their careers in a way that would be enviable to many of us.  

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@Alias Grace, agree with everything you have written above. I'd just add that the "Western" cultural lens is a very diverse one. There are surprising (and deep) cultural differences between many "Western" countries which, in my experience, many Australians (not just "Anglo aussies" either) seem to be unaware of. 

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A relative of mine was destroyed by a mixed culture marriage. They were young and in love, travelling together, thinking it could never end and so they married and my relative was pregnant soon after. That's when it all changed. He convinced her to go back to his home with him (Indonesia) and basically my relative was expected to fit in to her very traditionally envisaged role there. There was a lot of pressure. So, while having all that support, she had no support. It broke her and so they basically labelled her as cracked and she was put into a mental health hospital for a while and lost both her children. She was never the same. Years and years of mental health problems. While she probably did have potential mental health issues before going with him, another experience might not have brought them out or led to such severe, long lasting illness. 

Edited by pelagic
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It’s time that the patriarchal norms that workplaces depend upon are outlawed; enabling everyone to participate in the workforce no matter what their family structure. 

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22 hours ago, NotsoSure said:

@Alias Grace, agree with everything you have written above. I'd just add that the "Western" cultural lens is a very diverse one. There are surprising (and deep) cultural differences between many "Western" countries which, in my experience, many Australians (not just "Anglo aussies" either) seem to be unaware of. 

Definitely! American, UK and Australian attitudes towards family and work are so different from each other we might as well all be on different planets.

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