Rioters requesting pardons

His influence over his supporters was far closer to that of a cult leader. For a start the use of thought stopping techniques. Repeated catch phrases that had an in group meaning. Changing Covid to China Virus. Another example would be how he tied facemask use to the making of a statement of hardwired values. If you wear a mask, you're an authoritarian, if you don't wear a mask, you value freedom. That's a thought stopping technique. As a result you had people going to war with the state over mask wearing not just in the US but the bloody world over. It all started with him being anti-mask. That's just one example but he did it over an over because he had no conscience about misusing the power and charisma of the office.

I'm not saying his followers aren't responsible. I'm saying you can't use their culpability to excuse or minmise Trump's culpability.

 

Nope not buying it

1. any criminal charges that actually apply to Trump should me made to him

2. any criminal charges that actually apply to rioters should me made to them

I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I've just seen a lot of media commentary amplifying the rioters culpability as a way to excuse Trump, so I'm just cautious of being totaly black and white here. I'm hearing a lot of. "He couldn't have known they'd do that. They're adults, he didn't hold a gun to their heads". as a way of arguing that Trump shouldn't face charges and the rioters should. I don't agree with that take at all. I'm pretty sure the rioters will get held to account. I think Trump will skate and that's disgusting (to me)

His influence over his supporters was far closer to that of a cult leader. For a start the use of thought stopping techniques. Repeated catch phrases that had an in group meaning. Changing Covid to China Virus. Another example would be how he tied facemask use to the making of a statement of hardwired values. If you wear a mask, you're an authoritarian, if you don't wear a mask, you value freedom. That's a thought stopping technique. As a result you had people going to war with the state over mask wearing not just in the US but the bloody world over. It all started with him being anti-mask. That's just one example but he did it over an over because he had no conscience about misusing the power and charisma of the office.

I'm not saying his followers aren't responsible. I'm saying you can't use their culpability to excuse or minmise Trump's culpability.

 

Nope not buying it

1. any criminal charges that actually apply to Trump should me made to him

2. any criminal charges that actually apply to rioters should me made to them

 

I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I've just seen a lot of media commentary amplifying the rioters culpability as a way to excuse Trump, so I'm just cautious of being totaly black and white here. I'm hearing a lot of. "He couldn't have known they'd do that. They're adults, he didn't hold a gun to their heads". as a way of arguing that Trump shouldn't face charges and the rioters should. I don't agree with that take at all. I'm pretty sure the rioters will get held to account. I think Trump will skate and that's disgusting (to me)

Right ok - yeah I have no problem with him being punished as well - I misread you, and thought you were saying they had some kind of diminished responsibility.

The thing is (and I don't mean to be argumentative, because I think we do agree with each other - but anyway) why did these techniques you described work on these people, and not hundreds of millions of others? I don't mean to labour the point but there are SO MANY Americans. SO many more than there are Australians.

Entitlement and white supremacy is the nuance.

 

How would that mean they're not responsible for their own actions?

 

I think they can be both held as responsible for their own actions while acknowledging there have been definite thought reform methods employed by Trump. People who've done terrible things while being members of cults are still criminally responible. But they are under influence and what should be taken from that is there is a far more dangerous individual involved than just these actors. You make sure you get the person pulling the strings. You give Charles Manson a heavier sentence than The Family, right? They're not going to do that.

I DO think they were very deliberately manipulated but with few exceptions, they have allowed it to happen through wilful ignorance. They have deliberately not cared to find the truth but sought only that which supports their bigotry. We can all be guilty of such information bias, but this kind of individual takes it to an art form. And it's not out of stupidity. It's more often a refusal to back down when you're shown evidence which refutes your own world view. I've debated with many a Trump supporter who is otherwise of reasonable intelligence but will swallow the dumbest ideas rather than believe they backed a dud horse.

So yes, I want to see Trump face criminal charges for inciting the insurrection, but I still want to see the insurrectionists held accountable.

Aside from that, rumour has it that to get a pardon you have to go through Jarod and it will cost you 2 million bucks. Doubt many of the insurrectionists have that kind of cash to splash.

I think QAnon did most of the work. DT the grifter just piggybacked and exploited the benefits as he usually does.

I DO think they were very deliberately manipulated but with few exceptions, they have allowed it to happen through wilful ignorance. They have deliberately not cared to find the truth but sought only that which supports their bigotry. We can all be guilty of such information bias, but this kind of individual takes it to an art form. And it's not out of stupidity. It's more often a refusal to back down when you're shown evidence which refutes your own world view. I've debated with many a Trump supporter who is otherwise of reasonable intelligence but will swallow the dumbest ideas rather than believe they backed a dud horse.

So yes, I want to see Trump face criminal charges for inciting the insurrection, but I still want to see the insurrectionists held accountable.

Aside from that, rumour has it that to get a pardon you have to go through Jarod and it will cost you 2 million bucks. Doubt many of the insurrectionists have that kind of cash to splash.

I think you're dead on with your description of the dynamic. In many cases they'd have followed anyone who fed their hate. Seems we've entered an age of these internet charlatans who have these followings who they wield like a weapon, launching them against various targets, usually the pet hated group of the "names" in each group. I wonder how much of it is sunk cost fallacy and how much is that Orwellian style 15 minute hate being a thing people get kind of hooked on.

I posted this in the us politics thread, but it’s long. One of the things that struck me was in any other situation, if people believed that there were coded messages being sent to them by famous people through typing tweets, there would be considering if this person was mentally ill. But on mass?

https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2020/7/the-second-coming?fbclid=IwAR3cPIwlM_MWJIPMZEIjn_w1XIsw_dpiepagzuz6hF6UKT5lQCSC-2ll7ko

I posted this in the us politics thread, but it’s long. One of the things that struck me was in any other situation, if people believed that there were coded messages being sent to them by famous people through typing tweets, there would be considering if this person was mentally ill. But on mass?

https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2020/7/the-second-coming?fbclid=IwAR3cPIwlM_MWJIPMZEIjn_w1XIsw_dpiepagzuz6hF6UKT5lQCSC-2ll7ko

I read 2 paras of that and couldn’t take any more. The absolutely fucking lunacy of it all is just more than I can deal with.

I posted this in the us politics thread, but it’s long. One of the things that struck me was in any other situation, if people believed that there were coded messages being sent to them by famous people through typing tweets, there would be considering if this person was mentally ill. But on mass?

https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2020/7/the-second-coming?fbclid=IwAR3cPIwlM_MWJIPMZEIjn_w1XIsw_dpiepagzuz6hF6UKT5lQCSC-2ll7ko

This has me thinking why are these secret messages/codes etc. not telling people to volunteer at charities more, help people in the community, do good in the world?

(no not really expecting an answer as that would mean we think like them and that is scary)