Content Warning: What’s with the trans hate online?

Is it really so terrible if language evolves? I just don’t see it as awful if a teeny minority who have a harder time in life are made to feel less excluded.

Especially around pregnancy and birthing issues. It must be a gigantic brain melt to have lived your life as much as possible as male, put so much time and effort into living how you feel internally, but then to be pregnant.

I don't see it as evolving. I see it as a return to a time when women weren't allowed to talk about their bodies - and breastfeeding and pregnancy particularly - in public because that was shocking and immodest. I guess your point of view determines whether this is progressive or regressive.

Edited to add: we've often seen posters on this site argue that language is very, very important. That it represents showing respect, acknowledging the existence of a group of people, being kind. So much so that there's now a set of words that are banned here. I wonder why the same doesn't apply to women - why are women told that "pregnant people" or "cervix haver" or "birthing body" is a fine substitution for the words "woman" and "mother" and when women are objecting to it they're told the language actually doesn't matter when it comes to them and they should just shoosh up about it.

So it’s not ok to talk about being a woman but it is ok to use the woman’s body to make a baby?

I think the erasure of the word women and mothers from legislation around pregnancy is a legitimate thing to be concerned about - it’s not inclusive if it excludes the vast majority of the population affected by the legislation. Is there any proof that erasing “women” and “mothers” will meaningfully assist a trans man’s dysphoria if they find out they are pregnant?

edited to add - there are reported instances in the UK where men accused of rape have transitioned while awaiting trial. the rape victim has been forced to refer to her attacker as a “woman” - and yet women have had to fight to have that word used in legislation concerning pregnancy and maternity leave? surely people can see how this is unfair, and not really progressive in any true sense of the word?

Happy to get back to the original question. On the forum the OP is referring to, as I mentioned before, transphobia is banned and swiftly deleted when reported. Therefore, there is no trans hate there.

 

Were you able to type that with a straight face? There are blog posts and articles about that site having a strong anti trans sentiment every other month..

 

Yes, lots of people dislike women discussing women’s rights. That’s not new information.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Mumsnet+trans+hate

All of these people? Even the women? If it walks like a duck..

I'm not a law person but don't they have to define their terms in legislation? I wonder how they did that in this case.

i’ve seen the term “gestational carrier” which is pretty dehumanising

Were you able to type that with a straight face? There are blog posts and articles about that site having a strong anti trans sentiment every other month..

 

Yes, lots of people dislike women discussing women’s rights. That’s not new information.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Mumsnet+trans+hate

All of these people? Even the women? If it walks like a duck..

Quote from the first link of the google search you provided:

“Mumsnet will always stand in solidarity with vulnerable or oppressed minorities,” said founder Justine Roberts. “Mumsnet is also committed to freedom of speech. Sometimes these two issues come into conflict, rarely more so than in the recent debate about what is acceptable to say, or not to say, about trans people.”

As a result the site has now published a list of principles spelling out how discussion of transgender issues will be moderated, banning negative generalisations about any group and introducing a policy of zero tolerance on rude or aggressive behaviour towards Mumsnet’s moderation team, who have been tested “to the absolute limit” by the debate.

As part of the new policy Mumsnet moderators are now likely to delete potentially “hurtful” comments that use trans people’s former names, posts which use pronouns they have consciously rejected, or mention the term “Trans-Identified Male”.

Quote from the second link of the google search you provided:

"We don’t tolerate transphobic comments and will delete any when they are flagged to us. But we do also believe strongly in free speech.

The discussion of gender self-id and what that might mean for very hard-won women’s rights, as well as the rapidly growing number of children exploring gender identity issues, is contentious.

We know some people would like us to simply censor this entire debate but a similar number think we censor too much. We’re committed to allowing respectful discussion of an issue that is of particular interest to parents."

Quote from the third link of the google search you provided:

In June, Mumsnet brought in tougher moderation rules after activists threatened to boycott companies who placed adverts on the site. It’s down to the site’s mods to enforce these, and to find a balance between fair debate and hate speech.

“If someone posts in order to offend or upset or cause trouble, we’ll delete that post,” says Mumsnet user ‘HebeMumsnet’, a 40-year-old who has been moderating the forums for four years. “If they post in a genuine spirit of debate, it’s usually – but not always – fine.”

As a counterargument against critics who say the site doesn’t do enough to stop transphobic comments, she says: “We get many robust representations from feminists saying our moderation gives too much ground to the trans rights activists too.”

The following links are from twitter or Mumsnet itself. I won't trouble you with those but this wasn't quite the gotcha you seem to think it was.

i’ve seen the term “gestational carrier” which is pretty dehumanising

Yes - sounds more like a robotic device than a woman.

OP, if you're still reading - I think this thread has adequately demonstrated the problem. MN allows more than is allowed here, but it's all the same old daft arguments.

The feminism chat board over there is very busy and has some feisty posters but it's definitely been the hub of a resurgence in feminist interest in the UK and elsewhere. There's a reason they have the saying "Came for the parenting, stayed for the feminism". There's even been a book about it. Of course, some people won't like it there but no one's forcing them to read.

i’ve seen some really good arguments on here, i think it’s been - on the whole - a good thread. I also think the statement mumsnet issued is really good and balanced - if they’re getting criticism from both feminists and trans rights activists then they’ve probably achieved a relatively fair middle ground - for the two groups, both of whom represent an oppressed group.

Agree, LB, on this thread. Appreciate Mod HQ keeping it open and being clear about the rules.

Just thinking on the op again, and I wonder, this forum has some incredibly intelligent and well rounded women, and yet this topic is still a struggle because it really is so complex. Maybe the "hate" online is initially rooted in fear of the unknown or unknowable, people do tend to ostracize and punish what they can't understand

 

My understanding is fine and I am not afraid of the unknown.

Dunno why you thought I was talking about you

Because you were talking about responders to this thread and she is one of them? You obviously wanted responses to your ideas from people discussing the issue?

Because you were talking about responders to this thread and she is one of them?

I thought my comment pretty clearly delineated between the well educated posters here on eb and the rest of the internet, which would have millions of users that wouldn't even know that sex and gender aren't interchangeable words. Since I started with, in response to the op, I also thought it was pretty obviously not directed at the general conversation of the thread. Obviously I wasn't as clear as I thought I was...

I am not well informed about these discussions but there are two things that stand out. Firstly, I have noticed is that whilst women/trans women/gestators/whichever label you prefer argue about the semantics of language and words, the men get on with oppressing and taking away rights from each and every one of us. Secondly, the vast majority of those involved in arguing agree that they do not want to exclude or cause harm overall to anyone struggling with gender or sex. A constant is the erosion of the rights of all humans who are not men - which is increasing daily.

Lots of good points, Meepy. I very much agree with your last sentence - the rights of people who are not men appear to be getting eroded. We will need to be able to name the class of not-men, and have some sort of objective, non-circular definition of who is a member of that class, to be able to fight the erosion of rights effectively.

Commercial surrogacy is illegal in every state and territory of Australia.

It's really not ok to conflate people's views on trans rights with their views on surrogacy. Numerous members of the old EB and here including myself have had to seriously consider altruistic surrogacy it as the only remaining option to have a family, and to have it misrepresented in this manner is frankly revolting. I don't see any of us actually being asked what we think about commercial surrogacy, but it's a handy downward punching talking point, apparently.

In the name of feminism, apparently. What a crock of shit.

Locking for review as this thread has strayed off topic. One of the rules of this section is that thread has to stay on topic.

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