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Content Warning: What’s with the trans hate online?


Lallalla

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I am not sure if this is the right place to post this. But with the original eb gone and this site not being quite a busy, I’ve been reading MN a lot lately. It boggles my mind how many people on there are bigoted against trans people.


And yet they claim to be ok with LGB people, just not T apparently. Who knows where they stand on I, or A.... I dare not ask on a place like MN.


But where does this come from? Is this set of beliefs as common in Aus as it appears to be in the UK?


Also just wanted to add I’m not trying to start a massive debate, just asking where this comes from in a space that is less... like MN

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I have no idea, probably just the slow movement of progress, one generations gay hate is the next generations trans hate? I'm not sure this is a topic that will be allowed to stick around here atm though

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Well this is always a big fat can of worms on here so I'll just say that they are some of the most vicious and unpleasant people I've come across on the internet. Yes, they hate trans people. Because they think being gender diverse is a lie.


It probably gets more play on MN because they tolerate it. Here, hating on trans people is rightly considered hate speech.


I'll warn you now that this thread will very probably get locked multiple times before we're done. Trans threads always do here.

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Trans people make be happy. I love seeing people just come out and be themselves. Maybe the hate is jealousy that they don't have the confidence to just be themselves?

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I’ve always been so confused about why people hate other people so much when it has nothing to do with them and no impact whatsoever on their lives. I can’t imagine having that much time and energy to dedicate to hating someone who just wants to live their life.

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Are you sure its a lot of people or is it a small number of very vocal posters? Keep in mind that people with strong opinions are more likely to be online ramming their views down other peoples necks.

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I frequent that site but have never joined. Yes, there is a lot of trans hate on there and it's vile. There are so many posts on there about trans people and I'd guesstimate and say 98% are against trans people. They are convinced that the men want to rape women and that's why they want to change sex so they have easier access to female toilets and change rooms. (their views, not mine) Anyone who disagrees with them is automatically labelled as being misogynistic and wanting to take women's rights away. They're completely obsessed.

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Ok, let's hope this is now a place where we can discuss this stuff openly and authentically.


OP, It's probably because in the UK they have experienced the end of the path that we are just beginning over here.


They have had women raped in jail by a supposed trans woman: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life


They have had teens transitioned with barely any investigation https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020


They have trans women taking out medals in womens sporting competitions https://nypost.com/2019/07/30/transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbards-gold-medal-sparks-fierce-debate/


And then complaining about the people they displaced not being friendly

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/cycling/transgender-cyclist-accuses-woman-defeated-20702168


In Australia we are still at the point where inclusivity seems like just sharing bathrooms and using correct pronouns, which arguably doesn’t hurt anyone (though some disagree on the bathroom front).

In the UK they have seen things get to the point where children are hurt and women are hurt, no wonder they are angry and scared.


And importantly, another of the major casualties of this are genuine trans people who aren’t looking to commit crimes or displace women, but who have these people as their public face, drawing hatred towards them. They aren’t the ones in the public eye, because they lay low and just try to live their lives. But characters like the above take the advocacy meant for them, and abuse it beyond all recognition till everybody is hurt by it.

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Regarding the above, none of those are issues with trans people per se, but rather with government institutions that are failing the population. Rape exists in women's prisons and always has done, it's not a new issue brought in by trans women. Doctors acting without due consideration and a priority for their patients welfare, and medical malpractice, are also not new issues.


What is new is that a certain section of society is using trans people as a lightening rod for these issues for a variety of issues, including struggling with new ideas and sadly, conservatives masquerading as champions of women's rights when they are anything but.


I don't know what the issues with MN is, I really don't. I have heard those arguments from left wing people and I struggle immensely with a viewpoint that says we stand with marginalised and oppressed people, but no, not you.

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I struggle immensely with a viewpoint that says we stand with marginalised and oppressed people, but no, not you.

 

This is where I'm at too. I'm not sure why marginalised and oppressed women now have to be ignored in favour of a different marginalised and oppressed group. There should be a way to balance them all.

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Guest Alias Grace

I struggle immensely with a viewpoint that says we stand with marginalised and oppressed people, but no, not you.

 

This is where I'm at too. I'm not sure why marginalised and oppressed women now have to be ignored in favour of a different marginalised and oppressed group. There should be a way to balance them all.

 

Absolutely. The biggest problem as I perceive it is MRA-types hijacking the trans-agenda to exclude and further oppress women and effectively pitting the trans-community and women against each other when the reality is that both groups deserve greater protections, inclusivity and supports. Unsurprisingly, the only group that does well out of the current 'debate' is cis-men.

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Claiming that we are on a path of recognising trans rights that inevitably leads to those kinds of outcomes is a bit of over reach, in my humble opinion. We are culturally and institutionally quite different to the UK. Our way of dealing with issues of equality and injustice has been quite different. Our health system is quite different. Our legal system is quite different. Our queer culture is quite different. My experience with the neurodiversity moment has given me insight into the massive differences between the countries in their approach to disability, I don’t ever assume that because something has happened in the UK WRT autism or disability, that we are “on the same path”, and in fact history so far doesn’t bear that out. I don’t think our experiences of rights movements have been parallel. I think we experience progress in both countries, but the paths taken can and do vary wildly. I think the idea of a “slippery slope” should be viewed with caution and suspicions about whose interests are served by resisting progress.

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I think people see what they consider erosion of their life and things they held dear in their childhood, so raising the cry " political correctness gone wrong". I mean today it's news that Mr Potato Head is dropping the " Mr" and becoming gender neutral. Things that they thought were " right" are now wrong, and people don't like to admit that they are wrong or cannot understand the reason for change ( Coon Cheese anyone?). And even then people still argue about it, as I had a First People person actually say " hey I and my friends don't care about Coon Cheese, it's just a name and we don't care. Do we need to rename Maine Coon cats now?" , so even the people we are trying to equalise, maynot agree with what is happening!

I think Gay, Bi and transvestite rights were mainly ok as they weren't pushing onto other people rights as such ( gay people weren't pushing to use toilets for instance), but now there's all these little and big problems popping up as mentioned above, and it's looking " too hard" for people.

I find the situation confusing and hard to find solutions to. I want everyone to be treated well, but have no idea if who's rights should trump others.

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It's a really different culture over there - sometimes I forget, but it is. And mumsnet is quite a different demographic to EB I think.

I agree with PPs that say they're not the inevitable future of Australia. It's a really different place.

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I think the internet is very polarising, especially twitter but also forums and social media. What you see on mumsnet is a result of that polarisation. I suspect if you encountered many of those people in real life you wouldn't find them so hateful.

There is a legitimate clash of rights around some issues and perhaps if we could discuss them openly we wouldn't need to all retreat to polarised positions and lob grenades.

For me use of language is one area of rights clashes. I object to words like woman and female not being allowed to be used to refer to biological and medical realities and then women's services in various fields have to start using terms like uterus haver instead of woman. (Note: I won't give examples now but can if needed). That's just one clash of rights among many. Let's agree that progress is not an easy to follow map, it's complex and we're going to have to nut out areas where rights clash.

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I guess by nature social media and forums are used by people who have opinions otherwise they wouldn't work and there would be no point in them being there

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Some people did feel gay rights were challenging their rights. We had that whole idea that religious people were being “forced” to do things they found unethical such as the gay wedding cake and homophobic baker scenario. Some people felt that changing the definition of marriage somehow diminished the meaning of their own marriage. Some people feel they shouldn’t need to accomodate homosexuality and same sex relationships as something legitimate. Women’s rights movements have long been criticised for the impact that emancipation of women would have on traditional family structures, and on children. Just as women’s rights to terminate pregnancy are believed by some to be curtailed by that of a fetus, many felt and continue to feel that if women do not perform their traditional role as mother and homemaker, their children (and ultimately, their family and society more generally) will suffer in an unacceptable way. The idea of a fundament tension between the rights of different groups of people is repeated in disability, race, class etc etc based rights movements. There’s actually nothing particularly unique about this.

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Some people did feel gay rights were challenging their rights. We had that whole idea that religious people were being “forced” to do things they found unethical such as the gay wedding cake and homophobic baker scenario. Some people felt that changing the definition of marriage somehow diminished the meaning of their own marriage. Some people feel they shouldn’t need to accomodate homosexuality and same sex relationships as something legitimate. Women’s rights movements have long been criticised for the impact that emancipation of women would have on traditional family structures, and on children. Just as women’s rights to terminate pregnancy are believed by some to be curtailed by that of a fetus, many felt and continue to feel that if women do not perform their traditional role as mother and homemaker, their children (and ultimately, their family and society more generally) will suffer in an unacceptable way. The idea of a fundament tension between the rights of different groups of people is repeated in disability, race, class etc etc based rights movements. There’s actually nothing particularly unique about this.

 

I think what's unique about it is the fact that it's mostly been played out online, which older movements haven't, which, as PPs have said, makes it so much nastier. People can hide behind anonymity and only the people who feel strongly comment, but it can feel like they represent so many more people than they do.

The other thing is that it feels like such a big, broad issue. Someone who wants to identify as genderqueer and use they/them pronouns genuinely isn't hurting anyone or infringing on anyone's rights. Someone who has the natural advantages of being much bigger and stronger than all the other women, and getting the medal in whatever event (you can tell I don't sport) is effecting people. It's not a clearly defined group of oppressed people.

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Trans women are women. Arguments they steal women's sporting achievements etc are like arguing tall women steal sporting achievements by displacing Genuine Short Women.


Attempting to make trans women a third category and being all "let's support women and trans people" doesn't work. The only way that logically works is if you are talking about women (which includes trans women) and separately supporting trans men and non-binary people. But rarely do the "support both" people support transmen or even acknowledge non-binary people exist.

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Trans women are women. Arguments they steal women's sporting achievements etc are like arguing tall women steal sporting achievements by displacing Genuine Short Women.

 

Well if there were a Genuine Short Women sporting category, then yes, a tall woman identifying as a short one (especially in long jump, for instance) would be unfairly displacing short people's sporting achievements.

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Trans women are women. Arguments they steal women's sporting achievements etc are like arguing tall women steal sporting achievements by displacing Genuine Short Women.


Attempting to make trans women a third category and being all "let's support women and trans people" doesn't work. The only way that logically works is if you are talking about women (which includes trans women) and separately supporting trans men and non-binary people. But rarely do the "support both" people support transmen or even acknowledge non-binary people exist.

 

Women are oppressed by patriarchal society. If a transman uses services or toilets or whatever for men, then he's not encroaching on men's hard fought rights, because there was no hard fight. Cis men were on top and remain on top, so they don't really have much to complain about.

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Trans women are women. Arguments they steal women's sporting achievements etc are like arguing tall women steal sporting achievements by displacing Genuine Short Women.


Attempting to make trans women a third category and being all "let's support women and trans people" doesn't work. The only way that logically works is if you are talking about women (which includes trans women) and separately supporting trans men and non-binary people. But rarely do the "support both" people support transmen or even acknowledge non-binary people exist.

Then for sport purposes, how do you become a transwoman? Do you need some kind of certification? Is it a problem if transwomen win disproportionate numbers of sporting awards because of the effects of their previous or current hormones? Can a man just enrol in a sport and say they are a transwoman? How does a sport decide if someone is genuinely a transwoman? These are real issues faced by sports all around the world. Certainly not "nothing to see here"

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