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A feminist Christmas reflection.


Alta Gaudia

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Came across this on FB and it made me tear up, so thought it was worth sharing:


''sometimes I wonder

if Mary breastfed Jesus.

if she cried out when he bit her

or if she sobbed when he would not latch.

and sometimes I wonder

if this is all too vulgar

to ask in a church

full of men

without milk stains on their shirts

or coconut oil on their breasts

preaching from pulpits off limits to the Mother of God.

but then i think of feeding Jesus,

birthing Jesus,

the expulsion of blood

and smell of sweat,

the salt of a mother’s tears

onto the soft head of the Salt of the Earth,

feeling lonely

and tired

hungry

annoyed

overwhelmed

loving

and i think,

if the vulgarity of birth is not

honestly preached

by men who carry power but not burden,

who carry privilege but not labor,

who carry authority but not submission,

then it should not be preached at all.

because the real scandal of the Birth of God

lies in the cracked nipples of a

14 year old

and not in the sermons of ministers

who say women

are too delicate

to lead.''

-Kaitlin Hardy Shetler

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But what about women of colour and non religious women?

 

??


luke-1-mary-Black-madonna-and-child-nativity-holy-family-christmas-art.jpg


For what it's worth, here's my favourite nativity image this year.


As for non religious women, this is a Christmas reflection. If it doesn't interest you, that's fine, but I thought it might interest some.

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they gift our girls

with purity rings

that they be

full of grace

instead of choice and grit


then they shame our girls

for pregnancies

which is a funny way

to pay homage

to a bastard god


she barely agreed

to bear the divine

but church rarely has time

to talk consent

when a woman’s

body is involved


i don’t doubt

mary’s song

just the tune

because you can still magnify

the things that frighten you

and call holy powers

that oppress


i want to believe

in the agency

of a young virgin child

in a god that sought her

blessing

instead of compliance


but that story’s not found

in blue books behind pews

but in the grit

of the girls

shamed for their choice


and i keep looking for them

but they were kicked out

there’s no room

in an inn built for

kings and wise men

because ego can’t stand

mothers of god


#poemsfortheresistance

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Lucrezia Borgia

its a nice poem AG - thanks for posting. This bit really spoke to me


if the vulgarity of birth is not

honestly preached

by men who carry power but not burden,

who carry privilege but not labor,

who carry authority but not submission,

then it should not be preached at all.


I like yours too Lees - "because ego can’t stand

mothers of god" - that is so so true.


Women are amazing.

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But what about women of colour and non religious women?

I am not at all religious, but I think both poems that have been shared are incredibly powerful, and I find them thought-provoking and moving and honest.

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ArabellaKagical

But what about women of colour and non religious women?

 

What do you mean?

 

Other feminist discussion was deemed inappropriate becaues WOC were not included - yet another feminst thread by a white woman talking about a woman who, no matter how unlikely to be true, is on the whole represented as white. And as long as we have to include everyone, the non religious should be thought about as well.

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[mention]Alta Gaudia[/mention] and [mention]Lees75[/mention]

Thank you both for sharing those poems!

I have to be careful when I consider religious ideas as I fundamentally come from a feeling of abhorring the practise and content of so much of what I think I know religion is.

It is extremely eb like to just whack me in the face with a different perspective that helps me to reflect on my prejudices and how they ultimately are as intolerant as I often feel religion can be.


I hope my comment isn't insensitive to anyone, as I really mean to reflect on a very important slap in the face for myself and don't mean to be judging others, although I realise I have done so in the past, for which I apologise.

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@Alta Gaudia and @Lees75

Thank you both for sharing those poems!

I have to be careful when I consider religious ideas as I fundamentally come from a feeling of abhorring the practise and content of so much of what I think I know religion is.

It is extremely eb like to just whack me in the face with a different perspective that helps me to reflect on my prejudices and how they ultimately are as intolerant as I often feel religion can be.


I hope my comment isn't insensitive to anyone, as I really mean to reflect on a very important slap in the face for myself and don't mean to be judging others, although I realise I have done so in the past, for which I apologise.

 

Well I wouldn’t expect the same eb effect here considering the blanket banning of an extremely worthy of discussion whether you agree with it or not facet of feminism. Who knows what will be banned next?

 

Well I have experienced that same effect and I choose to attribute it to the musings, opinions and lived experiences of those in the community that I am very grateful has stayed alive.

I remember that this community also includes the mods/admins and feel compassion for their actions, whether I agree with them or not.

If I thought I could do better, I would give it a try, but I know I couldn't and therefore I can be grateful for what I have.

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Two very powerful poems, it must be difficult to deal with religious structures (less so than beliefs) when so many are so misogynist.


I get the frustration but derailing any feminist thread to complain about past events is not constructive, it's just going to lead to more closed threads and less discussion. Give the mods time to work through it


Edited because the typo was annoying me!

Edited by Kallie
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Deleted because Kallie summed up what I was saying and I don't want to appear like I'm piling on or anything

Edited by Mooguru
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Give the mods time to work through it

 

Do you think they are? I would love that. I'm all for giving people time, an adjustment period to set up rules and guidelines and limits etc. I hope that's what's happening.

I had the impression from the announcement/accusation that it was a cut and dried decision that was done and dusted. In that context I can see why people hurt by it would like it kept top of mind, because without that change won't happen. It's like the difference between a hungry kid nagging to be fed while mum is preparing dinner, vs a hungry kid nagging to be fed because otherwise they will never be.

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Speaking very personally and not at all in any official mod capacity, I understand the frustration and disappointment being expressed in this thread. This is not how any of us wanted things to be.


However, that said, and without in any way trying to say people shouldn't feel what they feel or even express it, I'd very sincerely like to ask that this thread not be utterly derailed by it.

 

Do you have any thoughts about the rejected Gospel of Mary, Alta Guardia? Was it rejected on theological grounds or simply due to sexism?

 

That's a complicated question. I think it was probably not included in Scripture (which is not quite the same thing as being rejected; there are a lot of important and highly regarded works which were very influential in the early church; eg. The Shepherd, the Didache, and others, which didn't ultimately get included in the Bible) because there were very strict criteria for being included which it could not meet; the most important of those being that we knew who the author was.


We no longer have a complete extant copy, either, but what we do have suggests that its ideas were not really in keeping with what did make it in as Scripture. (It falls into the category of gnostic texts, and that's a whole other rabbit hole, but suffice it to say gnosticism and orthodox Christianity really don't gel well together, and not for the sorts of reasons that would now come in for feminist critique).

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Lucrezia Borgia

I think religion and feminism is fascinating - obviously I am an atheist (and am well know on past boards for that) - but I am a feminist, and I am of course interested in religion and the hold it has over society. You can be an atheist but still appreciate the tremendous impact religion has had - and continues to have - on culture, on society, on governments, in the arts, in education and so on.


Most of the worlds religions have a misogynistic element to them - many (but certainly not all) do not allow women to hold a position of power or influence within the religious structure. Female voices are often silenced - I'm thinking 1 Timothy 2:12 here "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (and I am only referencing the Christian text here as that is culturally my background - Christianity is certainly not the only offender here). But what I do find interesting is that, despite this, it is women, IME, who have kept religion alive throughout the ages - who have passed it down to their children - who have kept up the traditions, who have bolstered the institutions with the myriad of small and seemingly thankless tasks that go unnoticed but which are so important to the survival of the institution - the volunteering, the donations (of time and other resources - not necessarily money) - defending the institution when it rarely defended them. They have done all this - and continue to do this - with very little thanks (it seems to me) from the institutions that benefit from their endeavours. I know change from within is often the best way forward - but I've gotta say - some women are playing the long game! (full credit to them).

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Give the mods time to work through it

 

Do you think they are?

 

At this point, I believe in good faith, yes, that it is not yet laid to rest. But that's where I'll leave it so as not to derail the thread further

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Give the mods time to work through it

 

Do you think they are? I would love that. I'm all for giving people time, an adjustment period to set up rules and guidelines and limits etc. I hope that's what's happening.

I had the impression from the announcement/accusation that it was a cut and dried decision that was done and dusted. In that context I can see why people hurt by it would like it kept top of mind, because without that change won't happen. It's like the difference between a hungry kid nagging to be fed while mum is preparing dinner, vs a hungry kid nagging to be fed because otherwise they will never be.

 

Of course we are - I have spent more time engaging with the admin/team than I have with my own damn family this week, as have the rest of the team. If I had to clock it, I would say at a minimum 30 hours, near a full time job.

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Of course we are - I have spent more time engaging with the admin/team than I have with my own damn family this week, as have the rest of the team. If I had to clock it, I would say at a minimum 30 hours, near a full time job.

 

My question was more whether it was still an issue under consideration, more so than whether it had been considered already.


But I would like to thank the mods for the massive effort and sacrifice put in. I hope it bears better fruit than current appearances represent.

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Yes, it sounds like a lot of work. I think the team may really benefit from having Zeppelina write the announcements in future.


The poems are great but to me they harshly underline the sexism of organised religion. Looking at the events in the US, I'm not sure the long game really will be worth it.

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What struck me about both poems is for me, they speak really loudly to the experience of feeling at times alienated from a belief system which at other times has helped you understand the world. and made you who you are. The cost of speaking what others see as heresy while simulatnaeously trying to hold beliefs free from damage and hold them authentically.


I read this post earlier and went for a walk to try to tease out a bit of what I wanted to say. I think it's hard for me to put words around because much of the heritage of christianity and feminism would seem odd bedfellows, taken on a purely surface view. As you know OP, my nearest and dearest have a history with what I'll call Christian Patriarchy (CP). As a result there are lively discussions about whether, when the nature of something is patriarchal and hierarchical, it can be revolutionised from within to allow female voices some agency. Her experience was when some religious institutions allow women more agency and voice within the church, the more problematic men (and their long suffering wives and kids) stomp off to ever more closed and patriarchal churches and congregations.


On the other hand, when you think about what it is that causes social change, dialectic theory talks about revolutionary space sitting in the inherent tensions and conflict between thesis and antithesis. In that sense christian feminsim is possibly walking in that dialectic tension. To speak truth to power about what the church as insitiution has done to women over the centuries, juxtaposed against the fact that Christianity was originally a religion of revolution, social justice, kicking the bankers out of the temple and so on. And you wonder how much has been rewritten. All the stories point to the fact Mary Magdalen was a far closer confidante of jesus than any other apostle, for example.


Anyway, that's all a mishmash mess that possibly makes little sense.


edited for typing

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What struck me about both poems is for me, they speak really loudly to the experience of feeling at times alienated from a belief system which at other times has helped you understand the world. and made you who you are. The cost of speaking what others see as heresy while simulatnaeously trying to hold beliefs free from damage and hold them authentically.

 

Yes, I think you've put words to some of my experience very well there (possibly better than I could have, honestly).


I do see the value of the place of dialectic tension. It is incredibly costly. I think, for me, EB has been part of what has helped me do that, actually; because it gave me a place that balanced other places in which I had to show up and be present.


I could post that poem here, I would have to think hard before reading it from the pulpit, for example.

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