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What would a post patriarchal world look like?


Kallie

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My random middle of the night no sleep musings...


If we successfully burned down the patriarchy (go us) what would you want to see in this post misogynistic world?


We all have things we'd like to see change now, but I guess usually we have to do that within the system, so I wonder, if the system was successfully dismantled, how much further would, or could, you go?


I'm thinking the tacit (and often blatant) tolerance of violence would hopefully be gone, leading to everyone being able to live safer, less stressful lives.


People would be able to pursue their personal ambitions, be it family or career or something in between or completely different without having to consider if their sex or orientation will stop them from going as far as they want to go.


I'd like to see female bodies and bodily functions in all their varied glory being not just accepted but celebrated as an equally worthy experience to the male. Though I expect capitalism may have a lot to answer to here as well.


So that's a start from me. What would you want to see? Perhaps my thoughts are not ambitious enough in a world that has kicked patriarchy to the curb?

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I'd like to see female bodies and bodily functions in all their varied glory being not just accepted but celebrated as an equally worthy experience to the male. Though I expect capitalism may have a lot to answer to here as well

 

I don't know about Australia, but here in Canada, advertisements for menstrual products always include blue liquid to demonstrate just how absorbent they are. Recently though, one company has been using (gasp!) red liquid instead.


I'd like to think that's a start.


Personally, I'd like to see men getting out of the business of determining what women can and cannot do to their own bodies.


Also would like it if women were allowed to age gracefully. Sure, men get plastic surgery and fillers and the like, but there's more pressure on women to have full lips, thick wavy not-grey hair, a smooth face, and eyelashes and boobs that precede you into a room.

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If we could genuinely do away with misogyny then I would expect to see a lot more women running countries which I have no doubt would lead to better co-operation between countries. Imagine how much we could achieve without all the male dick-measuring bullshit.


I think the streets would be busier at night, with women safer to just hang out or go for a walk after dark. Without that male chest beating nonsense people could just be chill.


I think make up usage would drop off slowly. Or, conversely, it might pick up as men decide to use it more.


And I think we'd see pockets in women's clothes.

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Equal pay for equal work would be up there on my list


Actual proper fines and incarceration for physical assault and rapes with the victim Not being brutulised by the experience


I do think advertising has a big hand in normalising and encouraging the patriarchy, also mainsteam media

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Men as the default human is so deeply embedded in society that I find it hard to imagine.


But if we did ever get to the point were women considered equal instead of secondary then:


Women would be taken seriously by the medical profession and receive treatments that are actually designed for and tested on women. No more 10+ years to be diagnosed for common female ailments, or delays in treating heart attacks, or sub optimal treatments.


Health and safety would account for female bodies, in car design and in workplace safety standards including heavy lifting in care work and working with chemicals.


Care work would be valued by society and accounted for in planning.

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Men as the default human is so deeply embedded in society that I find it hard to imagine.


But if we did ever get to the point were women considered equal instead of secondary then:


Women would be taken seriously by the medical profession and receive treatments that are actually designed for and tested on women. No more 10+ years to be diagnosed for common female ailments, or delays in treating heart attacks, or sub optimal treatments.


Health and safety would account for female bodies, in car design and in workplace safety standards including heavy lifting in care work and working with chemicals.


Care work would be valued by society and accounted for in planning.

 


And related to this, I’d have proper lactation education for health professionals. So many women are told that “breastfeeding just isn’t that important” or given bad advice like “you can’t have antibiotics while you breastfeed” while they have mastitis. It would also mean that proper educated lactation consultants would be on Medicare and health insurance and be respected as other specialists.

It’s not about forcing people to breastfeed, but supporting a woman to meet their goals, and recognising that it is important to women and a natural function that isn’t unusual or weird or some “non male” function.



Paid leave- parental and other. More flexible working arrangements to balance caring responsibilities.

More pay and support of the caring industries.

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Lucrezia Borgia

ah good question.


to my mind, patriarchal structures that harm females and put us in an inferior position to males is an axis of oppression like racism.


a member here, Vicbitt (I think) posted an excellent article here yesterday on “anti racism” - her post is still up on active topics (albeit a little bit down the list) so i don’t want to take credit for posting the article - but it’s a great article and speaks about how racism isn’t just attitudes but it is a system of oppression. that’s how i see patriarchy - and a post patriarchal world would look similar to the world described in that article as “anti racism” - in fact if you substitute the word female for where the author wrote black, it is a great description of what a post patriarchal world would like to me -


“Anti-female is the pivot on which misogyny and patriarchy turns. The only behaviours, beliefs or actions that qualify as a meaningful response to misogyny are those which demonstrate materially that female people are people. As people – as human beings – we should be able to move through the world, enjoying the same socio-economic resources and freedoms that to date only males have enjoyed.


To be anti-patriarchy, it is not enough to like, befriend, marry, or otherwise interact nicely with females. It’s not even enough to be a female. To be anti-patriarchy is actively to promote female safety, female prosperity, female health, female innocence, female freedom, female wellbeing and female life. “

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I think the form patriarchy has taken in our particular culture makes it hopelessly intertwined with both captalism, racism and every other hierarchical ism. We'd need to be post all of it for the others not to rear their ugly heads every time things come under pressure..


That's what we're seeing now. Things are coming under pressure due to the climate crisis and covid and every hierarchical relationship is amplified and utterly vicious with those on the lower tiers being scapegoated for the actions of those with the most power. Because if they don't keep folk turned on other folk with low power, they may look to take on the capitalist patriarchs who actually benefit from this mess. Those folk need various hierarchies to exist. All the striving isn't to take mankind forward as a whole but for certain people to prevail over others in power and control relationships..


I think our only clues as to how it would look perhaps come from looking to cultures which held their pagan traditions instead of adopting the patriarchal religions of the colonisers. Things start to look less like vertical hierarchies in terms of social structures. There was joint community respnsibility for rearing children, not individual women solely responsibile for raising the humans she birthed. Everyone pitched in. As such, children didn't grow up with an idea of themselves as someone's personal property with no power but submission to authority (training for capitalism, which inevitably turns into training for abusive relationships). Instead they grew up looking to take on responsibility one day - an outlook of "I can contribute and be a vtial part of something bigger". Things were focused on teachng them human endeavour, bravery and tenacity, rather than the instant compliance, submissiveness and fawning they'll need to survive capitalism. Self discipline came from a desire to be part of something bigger and to contribute, not from fear. To be the brave warrior, to hold the stories and pass them on, to heal the sick, to keep up group morale - all those roles were equally legitimate and valued. Now we value only the brave warrior - the person who can trample everyone else in their way. While competition still existed, co-operation was far more common and beneficial.


So, in terms of relationship patterns, it may look like a higher tech version of these types of societies that ran along more anarchical lines based on mutuality and co-operation as opposed to competition. power and control. All efforts would be valued, as opposed to certain labour being rewarded and other labour devalued and delegitimised (usually womens'labour).


I know this is all really broad brush and not at all specific. I think it's really really hard to conceive of when all you're grown up with is patriarchy, capitalism, etc. Every time I try, I realise I'm reproducing aspects that can be problematic

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Lucrezia Borgia

yes the collective community analogy is an interesting one - liberalism has smashed the idea of collective obligation and community - society is very individual and fractured now. Collective identities made people ask themselves “What is required of me?” “what will help my group?” rather than “What does my identity demand of you?”

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yes the collective community analogy is an interesting one - liberalism has smashed the idea of collective obligation and community - society is very individual and fractured now. Collective identities made people ask themselves “What is required of me?” “what will help my group?” rather than “What does my identity demand of you?”

 

I think it's possibly more along the lines of "That person's identity can benefit the group in this particular way in this particular role" looking at individuals in a more optimistic light as a resource to each other instead of the competitive view of "That person's identity is a threat to mine and I must compete them out of existence"


That's what I mean about it being so hard to conceive of when this is all we've known. My mind keep slotting things into competitive rather than a co-operative models, too

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Lucrezia Borgia

just reflecting more ....it’s probably a mistake to view all “pagan” cultures as a homogenous group who all behaved the same way. there was misogyny in those structures too. there may have been a community, but in many such cultures i bet women still got left with the bulk of the child rearing and caring. I wonder why.

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just reflecting more ....it’s probably a mistake to view all “pagan” cultures as a homogenous group who all behaved the same way. there was misogyny in those structures too. there may have been a community, but in many such cultures i bet women still got left with the bulk of the child rearing and caring. I wonder why.

 

Yes, I've worded it really clumsily. I had in mind particular cultures which have trended matrilineal if not matriarchal and/or egalitarian with respect to power. So you have blatant overt matriarchies like in Irish and Inuit pre christian cultural traditions. Then a whole range of cultures with more egalitarian power structures like many Maori, Polynesian, many Islander mobs in particular here, many North American First Nations - female cultural roles and power are so much more significant and their voices hold so much more weight in their communities than in western capitalist culture. It's why age and experience are often valued equally to youth and vitality in these cultures as well. Because women are valuable beyond their reproductive value.And it stands out. Women hold themselves differently, they have wider stances, they take up space. When they speak other people shut the fuck up and listen. Those are the particular things I've been able to observe in the people around me as where to find clues for something different and better outside of what patriarchal capitalism has to offer.


ETA : this isn't about idealisation either. There's nowhere free of the influence of colonisation, conversion to a patriarchal version of sprituality etc. But there are clues and vestiges

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I definitely can't imagine it in a comprehensive way.


One thing that does come to mind is that how we "do" education would need a complete overhaul. We have a system that began to develop in orphanages and monasteries (school bells were once the monastery bells!) centuries ago. But I'm not convinced that it's a great system for treating each learner as an individual, for nurturing personal potential, or for equipping people to take their place in society. It has benefits, sure, but it's geared towards equipping people to be workers in a capitalist system, not whole human beings in a community.


I'm not sure what I'm saying makes sense outside my own head, but I know what I mean!

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Guest Alias Grace

Equal participation by men in the raising of their children. From Day 1. Both parents given balanced information on the options available feeding their newborn so that mothers are not chronically sleep deprived for months on end (if not longer). Equal periods of parental leave instead of the bullshit defaults of 2 weeks for men and 12 months for women that invariably catapult mothers into a default carer role for years to come (even if they return to the workforce on a full time basis) whilst fatherhood is not even a blip on a man's career. And stop calling it maternity leave. It's icky and paternalistic and only serves to reinforce traditional gender roles. Call it parental leave instead.


In my Utopian world, both parents would take 3 months parental leave concurrently post-birth. Even if women choose to exclusively breastfeed during that period, men would be responsible for ensuring that all of their partner's self care needs (rest, nutrition, exercise and leisure time) are met and all other domestic responsibilities are taken care of. At the end of those 3 months, parents would jointly choose their paid working arrangements and continually adjust them over time. But absolutely nothing will change for as long as the average period of men's parental leave is roughly equivalent to an annual holiday to Bali.

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I definitely can't imagine it in a comprehensive way.


One thing that does come to mind is that how we "do" education would need a complete overhaul. We have a system that began to develop in orphanages and monasteries (school bells were once the monastery bells!) centuries ago. But I'm not convinced that it's a great system for treating each learner as an individual, for nurturing personal potential, or for equipping people to take their place in society. It has benefits, sure, but it's geared towards equipping people to be workers in a capitalist system, not whole human beings in a community.


I'm not sure what I'm saying makes sense outside my own head, but I know what I mean!

 

Yes, education would hopefully be flexible enough to allow the learner to expand to where their interests lie,and to where they can do the most benefit as opposed to which roles are more economically rewarded


Has anyone here read the Ursula Le Guin short story anthology The Birthday of the World? It's a collection in which she explores societal power structures, gender and sex in various different ways. The story that really stayed with me and comes to mind in this discussion was one called "Solitude" which was a matriarchal society. I wast also a society both highly valuing of an individual's self while still reaping the benefits of co-operation through introversion being valued instead of extroversion culturally speaking. Really interesting story

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I definitely can't imagine it in a comprehensive way.


One thing that does come to mind is that how we "do" education would need a complete overhaul. We have a system that began to develop in orphanages and monasteries (school bells were once the monastery bells!) centuries ago. But I'm not convinced that it's a great system for treating each learner as an individual, for nurturing personal potential, or for equipping people to take their place in society. It has benefits, sure, but it's geared towards equipping people to be workers in a capitalist system, not whole human beings in a community.


I'm not sure what I'm saying makes sense outside my own head, but I know what I mean!

 

This is exactly how I feel. My son has asd. I am a teacher too and yet really doubt the system to meet individual needs. I feel like I am just fuelling the consumerist and capitalist train.

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I think the language we use has patriarchy embedded in it, which makes it difficult to explain a world without it. I'd like to see qualities such as empathy and compassion given equal value to strength and power. Even the concept of yielding, instead of being seen as weak, is just an equal and opposite action to pushing. The patriarchy (and its vehicle, capitalism) pushes ever onward, driving us to climate catastrophe. I'd like to see a return to a balance of give and take, ebb and flow, neither above the other.

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Part of the getting rid of patriarchy that may not be popular would be (in my opinion) getting rid of marriage as we know it. This would, of course, get rid of many of the traditions that are ingrained in our culture in both men and women. It would mean getting rid of the naff proposal stuff (by men), the white dress, the "princess for a day" mentality, the "need" of women to find a "good husband".

None of that would necessary or ideal in the post-patriarchal world.


And that would be a good thing.

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It would be so different. The world would need to be non capitalist. Pregnancy and child rearing simply does get in the way of working/success/achievement as the world measures it. Of course, all those things are their own success and achievement, but they're not valued, most likely due to the fact that anyone can do it. So you have to look at a world that values people existing just in themselves, with no expectation of 'success' or valuing of competition or exceptionalism.

And somehow you have to get that idea of ownership gone, but of course that is going to mean children are not owned either. So maybe we'd be looking at something more kibbutzy for child rearing - community responsibility rather than parental?

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I wonder if it would have less focus on how women look. The fuss over hair, colour, presence, location and style for women is crazy now.

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In the post-climate-change world I'm sure none of those things will matter. Fashion and self expression is hideous for the environment. Everyone will most likely wear similar clothes and shoes and things like jewellery and hair dye would be in the past. This would help remove a lot of the crap - but gender posturing probably won't be as important in a post patriachal world anyway. Women would no longer have to elicit protection or possession responses from men, and nor would anyone else.

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Women wouldn't be silenced because it could hurt a man's feelings or reputation.

 

Yes, silencing women because what they say might hurt a man's feelings seems like a VERY patriarchal thing.

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