Jump to content
IGNORED

OSHC and Manners


DidiTL

Recommended Posts

PocketMacrophobia

DS's verbal communication skills are very good but if he's overwhelmed and struggling a teacher having these expectations that he must repeat a sentence exactly how they wish is when he'd stop learning and start with full anxiety.


Its a difference that's clear this year (and end of last year) where DS won't even ask the teacher for help or where the toilet is vs last year where his teacher picked up that he seemed a little out of sorts and did I have have any idea what was going on for him. Anyway we worked it out and he had a great year while he was with that teacher.


He gets situational mutism, as does my DD. If he's overwhelmed he can not communicate the way he usually does. Not will not. Can not. Making DS repeat a sentence back will make him feel shame and anxiety, not teach him manners. For DD not giving her time to get her words back will likely tip her into melt down.


Unless I have this explicit conversation with teachers they don't tend to understand.


If a disabled kid needs the toilet and they say "toilet" they're communicating with you. If they usually say "please" and they don't maybe have a think about why.


I don't have time to link now but there are some great resources that cover situational (selective) mutism if you have a search online.



Back on topic the bloke is on a power trip and I agree with pps about making a complaint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 47
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • DidiTL

    6

  • YTT1

    6

  • Paddlepop

    2

  • qak

    2

Top Posters In This Topic

The problem with this punishment is that it could lead to a whole cascade for the poor kid. They don't have their homework for school the next day, so get kept in etc. Even if their manners were terrible, confiscating homework is an unreasonable punishment.


I also don't see the issue with just asking, not every request needs to have a please attached and to make that a thing just seems power trippy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why do you even need to say please? i'm not sure i would in that circumstances. It you put your hand up or whatever and ask if you may go outside to put your things in your bag that should be sufficient.


Same as if i ask someone to pass me something i'm not going to say please but i'll say thanks when it's done.

 

If you were a child who asked me to pass you something without saying please, I would remind you to say it. I would also expect you to say thank you.


As an adult, I'd pass you whatever but think you were rude.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Alias Grace

Why do you even need to say please? i'm not sure i would in that circumstances. It you put your hand up or whatever and ask if you may go outside to put your things in your bag that should be sufficient.


Same as if i ask someone to pass me something i'm not going to say please but i'll say thanks when it's done.

 

I agree that a please was not even required in this instance. The OP's son was simply asking permission to put his own homework in his own school bag. Yes, he needed to ask permission to leave the room - and did so - but the request did not involve any forbearance on the OSHC staff member. Different story if the OP's son asked for the OSHC staff member to put his homework in his school bag for him. Such a request would clearly warrant a please.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TBH I would be pretty pissed off that I had to go back to get the homework so that on it's own would merit a strongly worded complaint from me. You mentioned that your DS only attends twice a week so would that mean if you hadn't gone back to get it, your DS potentially would not have had his homework for a week?


I think it's so important to teach our children manners and model the correct behaviour. It would have been totally adequate for the instructor to make a comment that next time he would appreciate a please or even make a joke of it and say "hey where are your manners" but to punish the child and then cause you inconvenience is completely unacceptable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay so I'm on a different tangent here and if people don't know I work in a mainstream school in a special needs setting.


I always ask a child to say please if they don't say it, as well as pardon rather than what, sign for yes or no or PECS for a request, removal from refection with an acknowledgement (nod, yes, okay or smile - depending on ability to verbalise). I even structure sentences for children with speech issues - ie "say may,,,,, I,,,, please,,,,, go,,,,, to,,,, the,,,, toilet" rather than toilet.


I see no reason to not ask a child to say please. But why wasn't your child able to add please to a sentence if asked again???? If your child said it and was then totally reused to put it in bag that is sooooo wrong in many level. If the educator asked the child to say please and they refused, I would then not allow the child to put the homework in the bag but I would then do a social story to help the child and if it didn't help I would then hand it to the parent and tell them what happened.


We still need to teach our kiddies respect and proper verbal/sign interactions but it needs to be done in a positive way which would make them want to learn and understand.

 

My DS is a quiet old soul. The carer never requested he say please. Just punished him for not saying it. My DS put it on the table like he was told.


Thank you for your insight. It has brought tears to my eyes.

 

That is disgraceful.... WTF :rage:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay so I'm on a different tangent here and if people don't know I work in a mainstream school in a special needs setting.


I always ask a child to say please if they don't say it, as well as pardon rather than what, sign for yes or no or PECS for a request, removal from refection with an acknowledgement (nod, yes, okay or smile - depending on ability to verbalise). I even structure sentences for children with speech issues - ie "say may,,,,, I,,,, please,,,,, go,,,,, to,,,, the,,,, toilet" rather than toilet.


I see no reason to not ask a child to say please. But why wasn't your child able to add please to a sentence if asked again???? If your child said it and was then totally reused to put it in bag that is sooooo wrong in many level. If the educator asked the child to say please and they refused, I would then not allow the child to put the homework in the bag but I would then do a social story to help the child and if it didn't help I would then hand it to the parent and tell them what happened.


We still need to teach our kiddies respect and proper verbal/sign interactions but it needs to be done in a positive way which would make them want to learn and understand.

 

Geesh I hope the child actually makes it to the toilet whilst you force a child with speech issues to say a full sentence.


 

 

So far in my 15 years of working in schools no child has soiled themselves while I model correct language. Learning is not forcing. At the end of week 5 I have a child that at the start of school just said toilet now says I toilet please, I'm super happy that he is trying to put more words together and trying to form words. Same with students that say him look me, I model 'he (or name) looked at me.


Same for the non verbal child who requests the toilet by using pecs cards, he hands me the card and I say "you have asked to go to the toilet, yes you can, let's go". It's all about exposing students to language.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DS's verbal communication skills are very good but if he's overwhelmed and struggling a teacher having these expectations that he must repeat a sentence exactly how they wish is when he'd stop learning and start with full anxiety.


Its a difference that's clear this year (and end of last year) where DS won't even ask the teacher for help or where the toilet is vs last year where his teacher picked up that he seemed a little out of sorts and did I have have any idea what was going on for him. Anyway we worked it out and he had a great year while he was with that teacher.


He gets situational mutism, as does my DD. If he's overwhelmed he can not communicate the way he usually does. Not will not. Can not. Making DS repeat a sentence back will make him feel shame and anxiety, not teach him manners. For DD not giving her time to get her words back will likely tip her into melt down.


Unless I have this explicit conversation with teachers they don't tend to understand.


If a disabled kid needs the toilet and they say "toilet" they're communicating with you. If they usually say "please" and they don't maybe have a think about why.


I don't have time to link now but there are some great resources that cover situational (selective) mutism if you have a search online.



Back on topic the bloke is on a power trip and I agree with pps about making a complaint.

 

Selective mutism is a different ball game. Expectations are different, I would use body language and eye movement over speech every time in this case. If a child with a disability (not a disabled child - I hate that terminology) needs to go to the toilet and I accompany them I use every moment as a learning opportunity. One student I have likes to touch every maker on the path (so hard to say what it is, we have recycled water, not on mains sewer so we have these metal makers on the path that have W and are usually purple. My student who is non verbal with autism likes to put his foot on it every single time. I will point out look at that it has a letter M on it ( I think it's upside down, I think it should be W for water lol), that sounds like a m, it looks like this (sign language), can you make a M (help him sign M and show him M looks like lips together, can you make the M sound like me. Mmmmm is the letter M. I do this to all things like B on the boys toilet, G on the girls toilet....


I have worked with a student with selective mutism. I worked out why he didn't speak, it was because he was of Kiwi origin and when he said 6 it sounded like sex rather than six and he was terribly bullied in a previous school. The damage was done before he came to our school and rarely attended. I hope I made a difference and took him to quiet areas to learn, I saw a huge growth but others didn't as he was selective.


Oh and I never make a student say a whole sentence if they have speech issues I model speech asking them to copy me ..... can ...... I...... please....... go............ to ........... the ............ toilet.............?


Yes I know I should say may not can lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would be beyond angry if it were my DS at after school care and make a phonecall or email to head office..


I have made a few calls to head office about the strange behaviour of carers at our old after school care (not giving my ASD child a quiet space for quiet time mainly, forcing him to socialise) and I’ve had good outcomes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How frustrating.


Def reference standard 5 in your complaint.


I don't mind if they do homework or no homework at ASC, as long as they come home with their stuff and not traumatized!


We have had a relief carer this week and he's been upfront that he just hadn't been on top of the kids homework. The very efficient women who usually runs it is on holiday. I've been missing her, especially when I'm trying to do readers at bedtime, with a tired 6yo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@YTT1 you sound like an amazing EA (?). I can only wish my DD had access to an aide like you.

 

Awww, yes SLSO in NSW. I've had amazing mentors and worked with great teachers - and I try to mentor my co-workers. I'm lucky I've worked with some great people.


Oh and My DD has recently started working part time this year as an SLSO as she starts uni on Tuesday :) . She has had some great feedback and I tell everyone it's because she has had a good teacher ;) OMG so super proud of her, she is a natural. She has spent many years coming into work when her school was too much for her so she picked up a lot then and I have drummed my motto in - if a teacher needs to ask you to do something then you are not doing your job right - but I do add unless it's something obscure or grabbing their lunch lol.

Edited by YTT1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@YTT1, you sound amazing. If only I could photocopy you and bring you to all my classes! I have a teaching assistant with me just one period a week; she is solid gold too. :)


 

I always say I'm happy to be pimed out :lol: :ninja: Everyone knows if they need something to ask me as I always seem to be about to procure it.... basically I just tell a boss I'm taking it as it's needed for class, most people for some reason are too scared to approach the boss or bosses. I'm too old to worry about that shit lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

YodaTheWrinkledOne

Did she even give him a chance to rectify not saying please? As in “what’s the P word” type of reminder?

The instructor is a "he" and no he didn't. The instructor told me he is teaching them manners.

Bring it up with the supervisor. That's not how you teach manners. That's how to teach being a dickhead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I kinda get the whole teaching manners thing, but I think he was on a power trip.


We had one of my sons friends over this kid was 12 (NT no learning issues). He had finished his dinner and I asked him if he wanted any more. He just pushed his plate away from him. So I asked him again, and he pushed his plate a little further, with out even looking at me. So I asked again, a little differently this time, 'Would you like some more? Yes please or no thanks' and he said no thanks. It was totally bizarre.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lime-Polka-Dot

OSHC educators have no right to interfere with/ implement punishments that are related to the child's school work. I cannot imagine how anyone would think withholding a child's homework is a suitable punishment regardless of the reason.


DD was previously at an OSHC run by camp Australia. There was often only 2 of them for a lot more children than complied with ratios.


The coordinator was nice to me and to DD, but I was absolutely horrified, (particularly as someone with an early childhood education background) at the way she spoke to children in front of me.


Because there were too many children for two staff and there were out of control behaviours, she just resorted to shouting angrily at them from across the room. One day while I was picking up DD she called a mother at work and then forced the child to tell her what he had just done, over a loud speaker phone call. DD came home one day and told me that she had yelled at two children because she found them outside playing in her car.


It bloody sucks when you have no choice but to use it and you're stuck with who the school uses. With childcare, if it wasn't right you could always move on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that if the OHSC supervisor found two children playing in a car, yelling would probably be justified. That would be a terrifying thing to discover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would not be happy with homework not coming home. It potentially means another consequence for the child and more work and running around for the parents.


I do teach manners and expect pleases and thank you s. But I do think there is too much emphasis on them at times. I would much prefer sometime to nicely ask me to do something or show appreciation rather than just use a work. So a ‘would you mind passing me the x’, or ‘that was really nice of you’ is just as good as a please and thank you on my book. Particularly when please and thanks are said more as throwaway words.


I have a young relative that has been taught to say excuse me when talking with adults. You hear people complementing him on it. But he also interrupts conversations repeatedly with his excuse mes so again I think it is more than words. I also remember a time when DS was having such a hard time with anxiety and part of that was around leaving the house and also making choices. I managed to get him out of the house to a sporting event where they had plenty of free things. We had to chose which type or colour of something and it was so hard for him to do and he managed to actually utter his choice to the person in charge who then barked at him about using his manners. Yes, please would have been good, but at the same time, maybe reading the situation that he looked withdrawn and took an awful long time to decide what he wanted may have also been helpful too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lime-Polka-Dot

I think that if the OHSC supervisor found two children playing in a car, yelling would probably be justified. That would be a terrifying thing to discover.

 

If she had locked her car and had there been adequate supervision and ratios in place the likelihood of such incidents happening in the first place declines significantly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron Swanson

This reminds me of an incident we had at DD's creche when she was around 3,


One of the carers would often complain about DD.


One day this carer told me that they had stopped giving DD late snack because DD wouldn't do what was asked.


I didn't know about late snack, but found out it was served after 5.30pm, when there was only a handful of kids still at creche at that time. (I also then realised why DD wasn't hungry for tea.)


I popped in earlier one day to observe DD in action. All the kids were standing in front of the carer, and they had to put their hand out for food, and say "ta".


DD looked at her like she was an idiot and refused to play along. DD had been using the word "please" since she was 2, and didn't want to talk in baby talk. I encouraged DD to say "please" and she did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, [mention]OnFire[/mention] , I don't think my 2yo would say it either? He would say please, or more likely 'can I PLEASE have a treeeeaaatt?'


I think the OPs OSHC provider need to reasses what it means to be polite as they have done the complete opposite by creating this ridiculous situation. The best teaching is modelling (as has been discussed many times above), and simply being polite to the students while reminding them to use their manners in appropriate situations would be enough. I don't punish for students not using manners as to me that's punishing for something that's likely due to their upbringing (I do for being deliberately rude, like pushing in- I'd send them to the back of the line, but not for forgetting to say please and thank you). To me that is like punishing a student for not having a pen- its a situation potentially caused by the parent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Advertisement

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...