Is “modesty” problematic?

Modest dressing also applies to men in some of the countries I've visited, and when I am travelling in those countries I tend to dress quite similar to how the women there dress, or at least make sure I'm covered neck to knees and high necked tops.

Though I think dressing modestly is often the most sensible way to dress anyhow, I still greatly dislike the idea that nudity is sexual. It isn't.

Do you think that the concept of dressing modestly is vocalised more when it's about women? I was thinking last night of all the countries I have been to where men would never wear shorts, despite the hottest weather. Is this a discussed thing in those groups? Is that modesty or culture? Is there a difference?

 

Men never wearing shorts is a social status thing in places like exclusive gentleman’s clubs, golf courses or on the floor of the stock exchange. Even in the middle of a steamy, hot day in London (yes, they exist) or Melbourne; you’ll never see a bloke in shorts or short sleeves in the business or financial district. It’s the opposite of modesty; it’s a declaration of class and status.

I was thinking more of places like the Middle East.

the loose flowing robes worn by many men in the middle east are obviously for modesty reasons, so in that sense the requirement is equal for men and women. and some muslim men too obviously cover their hair/head with turbans, or the ghutra or keffiyeh - but none of this cultural/religious headdress for men seems as restrictive (to me) as the burka or niqab - so while both sexes can observe a standard of modesty - what can often be demanded of women seems much more onerous.

the loose flowing robes worn by many men in the middle east are obviously for modesty reasons, so in that sense the requirement is equal for men and women. and some muslim men too obviously cover their hair/head with turbans, or the ghutra or keffiyeh - but none of this cultural/religious headdress for men seems as restrictive (to me) as the burka or niqab - so while both sexes can observe a standard of modesty - what can often be demanded of women seems much more onerous.

And to me this is one of the important distinctions - modesty for men seems to just be cover your knees and shoulders in most places. For women it often seems to be 'cover everything'.

Wearing layers and layers of clothes, entirely covering your body and face - its not just 'modest' its about making the woman anonymous, unidentifiable and uncomfortable.

People can call it empowering if they want - but lets not ignore where the decree comes from culturally - and what its about is about not leading men into temptation. And thats utter bullshit. That women need to be hidden to have value is an idea I find abhorrent.

the loose flowing robes worn by many men in the middle east are obviously for modesty reasons, so in that sense the requirement is equal for men and women. and some muslim men too obviously cover their hair/head with turbans, or the ghutra or keffiyeh - but none of this cultural/religious headdress for men seems as restrictive (to me) as the burka or niqab - so while both sexes can observe a standard of modesty - what can often be demanded of women seems much more onerous.

I think they're for the heat rather than for modesty? That's what an Egyptian man told me anyway (although obvs he can't speak for all of them).

The full body covering in the middle east seems like the only reasonable way to dress - though not when black. I'd wear something similar in those countries to avoid frying to a crisp too.

But, it has definitely been perverted into something about bodies by religion.

yes agree that the white robes are very sensible for that climate - the black burka? not so much, think of the heat it would retain. and agree the men probably do wear it for that reason - climate - religion just co-opted a practice that they did anyway?

the loose flowing robes worn by many men in the middle east are obviously for modesty reasons, so in that sense the requirement is equal for men and women. and some muslim men too obviously cover their hair/head with turbans, or the ghutra or keffiyeh - but none of this cultural/religious headdress for men seems as restrictive (to me) as the burka or niqab - so while both sexes can observe a standard of modesty - what can often be demanded of women seems much more onerous.

I was about to say that. We spent several days in Abu Dhabi, and you could actually see that the men had only undies on under their dish dash, which would have been a thousand times cooler than what the women were wearing. Even though I was wearing a skirt to the floor (with bike shorts underneath given it buttoned up, a buttoned up to the neck, and down to the wrist shirt, and had a long scarf I could use for my head (as specified on the website of the mosque), I still had to wear an abaya. It was synthetic and it was high thirties with high humidity and I thought I would expire, and it gets much hotter than that there. The way I was originally dressed was more conservative than the men.

A friend of mine bound her breasts and wore a dish dash while visiting Saudi. I have no idea how she pulled it off without getting killed.

She shouldn't have pulled it off. Rookie mistake! Leave that dish dash on, girl!

Black robes aren’t actually any hotter, the thick material is the key. Also some suggest it’s to do with the breezes.

https://www.npr.org/2012/07/25/157302810/summer-science-clothes-keep-you-cool-more-or-less

Thanks for this very interesting discussion!

It certainly has me wondering about my own choices with clothing and why I’m doing it. At least I don’t have to please anyone but myself

Modesty in 2021 in a girl’s school - don’t compromise the male teacher’s jobs!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-13/sydney-school-principal-rebuked-by-female-pupils-over-dress-code/13152272

She doubled down when students pushed back but now she understands and will be apologising!

Modesty in 2021 in a girl’s school - don’t compromise the male teacher’s jobs!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-13/sydney-school-principal-rebuked-by-female-pupils-over-dress-code/13152272

She doubled down when students pushed back but now she understands and will be apologising!

The quotes at the end from the kids were great!

Absolutely, I’d be so proud if they were my daughters - especially not giving up when they first went to her about it and she said they’d put 2+2 together and got 7.

Males that can sexualise underage girls should not be working in a school

Males that can sexualise underage girls should not be working in a school

In the case of the Cheltenham school were the males doing that, did they bring any of this to the attention of the head teacher was there any comments by them? or was it just the head teacher doing it off her own bat?

(I am not saying you are saying anything but just what i thought when i head the news)

If its anything like it was when I was there, then yes there were a lot of lovely male teachers, but quite a few that accidentally drop things very regularly

If its anything like it was when I was there, then yes there were a lot of lovely male teachers, but quite a few that accidentally drop things very regularly

Are you serious???

Males that can sexualise underage girls should not be working in a school

There was a comment on the Twitter thread I saw that effectively said if the male teachers are thinking about a 14yo that way then they should be out.

If its anything like it was when I was there, then yes there were a lot of lovely male teachers, but quite a few that accidentally drop things very regularly

Are you serious???

Yes, absolutely. We laughed at the worst offender.

Males that can sexualise underage girls should not be working in a school

 

There was a comment on the Twitter thread I saw that effectively said if the male teachers are thinking about a 14yo that way then they should be out.

I could say about the school near me 'if the teachers think getting personal with a student is ok they should not be in teaching' but that does not mean the teachers actually think this same as a 'a person who works for the local ANZ bank should not rob it' does not mean they were actually planning on robbing it

Sorry what?

The principal intimated with her address that the male teachers would be sexually attracted to the girls because she said their jobs would be compromised by the girls.

So she is in fact suggesting there are male teachers there that would have sexual thoughts about their students - in which case they shouldn’t be teaching. This is not a controversial statement I would think?

Sorry what?

The principal intimated with her address that the male teachers would be sexually attracted to the girls because she said their jobs would be compromised by the girls.

So she is in fact suggesting there are male teachers there that would have sexual thoughts about their students - in which case they shouldn’t be teaching. This is not a controversial statement I would think?

My point is she said that, but did the teachers themselves say that to her first or was it just her decision alone to make the decision.

she said 'their jobs might be compromised' but whose idea was it to say it the principal or the teachers?

Well that makes more sense - you are right if she said that with no grounds it is wrong.

Someone else on twitter suggested the males teachers might have recourse for the damage to their reputation caused by her insinuation, I have no idea if that would be true.

Every school I’ve been to had a pervy teacher, modesty made no difference.